Gee, I didn't know Ken Mehlman is running for office.What is this ad supposed to accomplish?

Lorie,

Since you asked, here's your answer...

Gay people do not "enjoy" outing other gay people, nor is the practice tolerated very well in the gay community.

With an exception...

IF you are gay, AND you use your position of power to activley work against the best interests of other gay people...

Like fighting against equal rights, marriage rights, anti-discrimination, hate crime legislation, etc...

THEN you are fair game.

That's what I know from what I've heard and read. I think it's considered "collaboration with the enemy". Or "selling out your people".

I can kind of understand it. I guess I'd be mad too, and I might want to reveal the hypocracy.

It's kind of funny that Mary Cheney is so angry with John Edwards as a result of the vice presidental debate in 2004. Makes sense that she's sticking up for her dad. She and her partner will eventualy get millions from the old guy. And personaly, I think his view on gay rights is to the left of his party. I'm sure he loves his daughter.

But money and family aside, If I were Mary and I had to live in a country ruled by conservative Republicans, or a country ruled by liberal Democrats, which would give her and her partner a better shake? Treat her more fairly. Protect her rights.

We know that a more liberal society would leave her more in peace to live her life, contribute to society and be respected.

So Mary frustrates the gay community, apparently because she does not use her position of authority to work in the best interest of gay people.

That's what I get out of it anyway.

Make any sense?

John

I understand the argument, John, and you stated it incredibly well. What the disagreement is, I guess, is over whether it is okay to attack someone personally, as an "outing" would be since it would so thoroughly affect their personal life. For those who think blacks or women are not acting in the best interests of those groups, would it be okay to attack them in a similar personal manner?

The other point of disagreement would be over what is in the best interest of gays or any other group. Even if a consensus is reached about what is in the best interest, I expect there would still be some pretty big disagreements over how best to achieve those goals.

As for Mary Cheney, I suspect she loves her Dad and not just for his millions. What got me so angry about the "outing" of Mary Cheney was that I read it as evidence that Democrats think that Republicans will not vote for someone they know is gay, or whose family member is gay. That is the height of ignorance and I think the result of the 2004 election proved that, but Democrats just still don't get it.

john,

from what i have read, some of the more left-wing, activist gays out there do, indeed, enjoy "outing" conservative gays.

i understand the argument you are relating ( i can't quite tell if you adhere to it or not). here is why it's wrong: every person out there (be they gay, straight, purple, or green) has their OWN opinion as to what is in their best interests. i've known some fiscally, strong on national security, and limited government gays that have had to keep their political opinions to themselves if they didn't want to be physically and emotionally ostrasized (sp) from the gay community.

who dares to say that every gay's first political priority MUST be gays rights. i've known some who think of themselves as Americans first, members of their community, members of their family, and finally, gay.

the same thing happens in the minority communities as well. it's the single most fundamental problem with "progressive" politics. ignoring the individual in favor of treating everybody as a part of some pre-defined group.

Lorie,

I don't know. I have no easy answers. It's a tough subject.

I'm sure Mary loves her dad, and the reverse is also true. Damn, we need a lot more love in the world. Everybody is valuable. Everybody deserves respect. And an equal chance. And equal rights.

I adore my wife. We've been together about 6 years now, married for 3. We have about 1000 distinct legal advantages under federal law that some of our other coupled friends don't have.

That's not fair.

I like fair. I like to be treated fairly. I like to treat other people fairly because it makes me a better human being.

Ke_future,

Likewise, I don't have any easy answers.

I think there is a difference between not working toward something, and activly working against something, and that's when people get outed.

Is it nice? No.
Fair? I don't know.
Karma (instant), perhaps...

(Karma is not mine to dispense, lest I become a victim of my own...(wink))

I don't like to lie, because I'm not that smart. If I had more brain power, I could store up more stories, and keep track of the things I said to whom and when.

It's easier for me to be as transparent and honest as possible.

To our civil servents, I would say hyprocracy is not a good trait. Be as fabulous as you want, but be honest and ethical.

God, I wish society didn't have to have these discussions... Here's an example....

When we launch the first (black/woman/jew/hispanic/japanese, etc...) into space, (or whatever) I like to say "we are halfway there".

We are halfway there because we trusted those individuals enough to have some important mission like that, and society sits up and takes notice.

We will be the rest of the way there, when society takes no notice that we sent a black or a jew or a hispanic, or a woman, or whatever, and we can just say "a good person went on a valuable mission today".

I suppose at that point, "outing" would have no purpose, no sting, no threat. It would be a non-issue. I think that would be good.

Lorie and Ke_future,

I am so honored to exchange ideas with both of you. You both strike me as people that are interested in learning what you can, teaching what you know, and doing both in an ethical and honest manner.

Thank you for speaking with me.

John

thanks john. i gotta say that is refreshing compared to what i get most of the time when i talk politics. a conservative in Seattle is a lonely prospect =)

i'd agree that everyone deserves a chance and that everyone should have equal rights. a chance to prove they are valuable and an equal right to prove that they deserve the respect you should be treating them with.

you see, i was raised, and i believe, that respect is something to be earned, not given. if you don't have to work for it, how can you truly know how valuable something is?

that is not to say that you as a person should not treat a person with respect until they deserve otherwise. maybe that is a petty distinction, but one that i think is important.

in regards to the working for something vs. working against something that you bring up. again, i have to ask, who gets to decide what the gay agenda should be? and what the punishment should be for those who don't toe the line.

see, here's the thing. i oppose dogmatic, ideological facism. and that's what this is.

i would argue that it is not nice, not fair, and the instant karma vegenance should be hurled at the asshats who do the outing in the first place.

so long as the karma does not involve my horrible spelling

oh, and a big part of the reason we keep having these discussions is because people still demand that the group identity i mentioned earlier be a factor in every decision. on both sides of the argument. just ask jesse jackson or those white supremist asshats. they're both playing the same game.

btw, the long response is your fault, since you responded to me =) should teach you!

Regardless of it being homophobic or not, I have to say it is one of the stupedist ppolitical ads I have seen in a long time.

At least it is a break from all of the negative ads we are seeing here in Nevada right now from both sides. Glad I already voted -- now I can tune them out!

Ke_future,

Thanks to you too. This is refreshing for me as well, as honest and respectful discussions can be hard to come by on Whzbang (as you've probably seen).

I'm out here in Seattle as well. I can imagine the liberals have you outnumbered. For that matter, true conservatives can be as scarce as hen's teeth. (I don't consider the current administration to be conservative.)

Hang in there...

John