DJ:

You sound bitter (LOL). Hey man, I'm with ya. I think what most people don't realize is that if you solve the Iraq problem, most of the concerns you have (which are not Iraq-specific) are answered. People put entirely too much weight on Israel/Palestine which in my opinion, if solved would only make things more complicated in the Middle East (other disputes would boil back to the surface). But if you solve the Iraq issue, resulting in a stable and even Democratic Western Ally, with a bite...the whole game changes.

That's the gamble the EVIL NEOCONS took, and I think it was a worthwhile gamble...especially if we pull it off. It appears that Bush is willing to do what it takes, and there's no "Rumsfeld's not listening to his generals excuse" any more. I pointed out the other day that I simply wish Bush would have said something like..."hey, there's going to be a lot of civilian casualties, and people will try to take advantage of that for policital gain...etc..."

OH..and Democrats don't need a plan...they got what they wanted, and if it all goes to hell they can STILL blame it on the White House.

Why should anyone do that?

1) It's his mess.

2) None of you are so naive as to believe that there isn't political capital to be made from letting him figure it out. From a purely political standpoint, why should the opposition lift a finger to give Bush a plan. Now, before you start spewing about politics, you know as well as i that the repubs would act no differently were it reversed.

3) If he was given a plan he'd do his own thing anyway. That's hist style and he won't change it. That's also one of his major weaknesses.

H

hugh,

1) wrong. on so many levels. if you want to start handing out blame on this one, there's enough to cover everyone. to point at bush and blame it all on him is to take a simplistic, non-historic view .

2) yes, there is political capital to be had. that doesn't make it right. if they are going to say that the president's plan won't work, they have an ethical obligation show an alternative which would be better, otherwise why shouldn't they be ignored? and yes, that is something that i expect and don't get from both sides of the street.

3) it's hard to know that for sure, since the only plans i have heard involve in effect retreating from the ME, which really isn't a viable solution. Yeah, he's stubborn. Most people are. But you can't take the man to task for not changing plans, if there hasn't been an acceptable one put forth.

Please note the acceptable part. This is important, because for every group of people, there are things that are acceptable, and things that aren't. The plans that I have heard mentioned have not had any components acceptable to those who want a viable, democratic, iraq.

>because for every group of people, there are things that are acceptable, and things that
aren't

Right you are Ke, and that is the result of decades of slowly evolving moral subjectivity. I'll do what makes ME look good, or what's good for me, or I want this, and (figurative here) I'll protest (throw a tantrum) until I can conjole some politician to give in to ME (who cares what will come for society at large,
I WANT to do this, and I want EVERYONE to say it's ok, because then 'it will be' (moral subjectivity, if it's good for me, it's good)

NOT the way of the mature spirit.

COMMON GOOD. E pluribus unum (the many become ONE)
That doesn't mean we think and speak exactly the same words, it means we all know GOOD from BAD action. RIGHT and WRONG from an OBJECTIVE SOURCE.
(or shall I say SPIRIT)

As Rich Galen observed in his column today, for the Democrats to be right in this situation the United States must lose the war in Iraq. Democrats refuse to put forth a policy alternative beyond redeployment (withdrawal). Success of the Democratic position is contingent upon the failure of our country.

We hear precious little of the likely consequences of this failure from the left. Full blown civil war and ethnic cleansing are possibilities. No doubt this is not really a concern as they will just blame it all on President Bush in any case.

The Democrats misread the fall election results in my opinion. They see the election as a rejection of the war and it's ideals by the voters. In truth the voters rejected the manner in which the war has been conducted. In the implementation of the war there is much to criticize. The voters also rejected the GOP's scandals, the record earmark spending and arrogant manner our GOP lawmakers conducted themselves. Honestly, I reject most of these things as well. The left sees much political capital to be had. If they can only get our President to declare defeat. However, they are wrong in this assessment. The American public does not wish to see our troops brought home in humiliating defeat that results in the deaths of an untold number of Iraqis. In short, the Democrats will overplay their hand and may well come off as the party of defeat.

The Democratic leadership is resisting the temptation to do this. That is why they are attempting to pass non-binding resolutions against the President's policy as opposed to using their Constitutional power of the purse to cut off funding. If they truly had the courage of their convictions, morality would force them to do whatever it takes to stop the war. After all, if the war is a mistake and not winnable, the Democrats are complicit in the needless deaths of American servicemen should they fail to do everything possible to end the conflict. Instead they attempt to continue to politicize the situation by offering meaningless resolutions. Ultimately, the American public will come to the conclusion that the Democratic alternative is defeat at any cost.

Do not hold your breath waiting for alternatives from the Democrats. As for me, I'll stick with the side trying to find a path to victory.

The dhimmi's plan for the war? Joe Biden-Idiot threatened a constitutional crisis in the senate if American soldiers chase the murderers from Iran back across the border and cross after them.
Yep, the dhimmi's are a big help, that is in getting more American soldiers killed so they can add them to their trophy wall.

I would think that 50,000 Americans in Vietnam + 3 to 5 million citizens of Southease Asia and the 2,000 + that have been killed in Iraq as a direct result of the aid and comfort provided to the terrorists by the dhimmi's would be enough trophies. Guess I was wrong. They want the blood of more American soldiers to flow over their hands.

Hopefully the civil war the dhimmi's keep threatening in the United States will start soon so we can eleminate the cowards and traitors for this earth.

I answered (most of) those questions 3 weeks ago (in a macro and quite elegant kind of way). If there was an archive button I'd paste it up. But since I can't type and since these are loaded questions, and circular, and in need of multiple digressions (Israel? That doubles the length automatically) I'll just say re: (#10) Are you shitting me??? From skirts to burkas; from a secular nation with a thriving Christian Assyrian community, to that community emigrating or hiding in their cellars while Shiia fundamentalists and Sunni mercenaries wage total war; and who knows WHAT goes on behind closed doors concerning the children. As Islam is ritually polite (politically correct in a 7th century kind of way), no one will ask... And as for "liberals, democrats and Bush-haters", add Reagan conservatives and anti-neocons, paleocons and America-firsters.(I know I'm leaving alot of people out. My apologies)

Although not legitimate the Dums do have a 'plan', and it's working. Divide and conquer is their tactic. They are the terrorists best ally.

Before I make my comments bout the dems plans, I have to ask what the Bush plan is. He has NOT laid out a plan at all. He has uttered more lies and wool over the eyes. Rice put it as "There is no plan B, there is only plan A."

Bush's plans are corporate and grabbing the Oil, and trying to appease the Saudis while he rapes Iraq and prods Iran into a final conflict.

Dems have several diplomatic plans on the board but are too smart to make false statements, such as "they will meet us with flowers".

Bush will do exactly what the Saudis tell him to do and if he has to have another 9-11 to get the public on board, he will arange for another group of Saudis to do it, then give them a free plane ride home. He repeats his mistakes daily.

swhisper appears 'out of it'...